Kolety

[Bryan]

Nie wstawialem strzalek, liczylem na spostrzegawczosc . Ech... Wszystko trzeba robic za kogos...

Np. w zbrojowni w kolecie jest np pan pod sciana ze zbrojami. Przypuszczalnie kolet tez ma pod zbroja pan grajacy w karty w zbroi i w helmie, na innym obrazku. Na pewno kolet ma tez inny pan, odwrocony plecami i tez grajacy w karty Itd itp.

Nie pisalem, ze kolet mial kazdy lepszy knecht.

[Kadrinazi]

I jak zwykle wszystko rozbija się tu o interpretację źródła ikonograficznego :) , bo z wymienionych przez Ciebie gentelmanów na wyposażonego w kolet wygląda mi co najwyżej ten spod ściany ze zbrojami. Ten odwrócony plecami to raczej wygląda na ubranego w [i:0b86b6366e]ridjacka[/i:0b86b6366e], no a trzeci pan to przypuszczalnie coś ma, ale nie widać co ;)

[Bryan]

I ten wlasnie np pan spod sciany ze zbrojami byl tym, ktorego mialem na tamtym obrazie na mysli.Liczac na inteligencje rozmowcy nie zakreslilem go wielkim czerwonym kolkiem.

Co do ridejackow etc - jak wspominalem wczesniej, pojecia "kolet" uzywam tu ogolnie jako nazwy zbroi ze skory, nie wdajac sie w szczegolyz w z nazewnictwem. A na sukiennego ridjacka mi to w ogole nie wyglada.

[TomaszRejf]

Proszę powstrzymać emocje. Tak to bywa jak się dyskutuje :). Ja się cieszę z wymiany zdań. I tak jak często bywa każdy co innego widzi na obrazie :).
jedna z kompanii holenderskich w dużej ilości koletów jest jakiś oficer pikinierów w kolecie po lewej stronie.
[img:b6923f9122]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/Officieren_en_andere_schutters_van_wijk_V_in_Amsterdam_onder_leiding_van_kaptein_Cornelis_de_Graeff_en_luitenant_Hendrick_Lauwrensz.png[/img:b6923f9122]

[Igła]

Oj rety i szkoda... Ja tam lubię obserwować takie dyskusje bo przeważnie znajduję w nich coś co pomaga mi w moich poszukiwaniach. W każdym razie uważajmy by nie skończyć jak Ci klawinierzy z holenderskich obrazów - niby-ważni, a jednak dość śmieszni mieszczanie udający żołnierzy. ;)

Ale żeby nie offtopować --- trafiłem gdzieś (i nie mogę niestety odnaleźć) wzmiankę o kaftanach/fartuchach skórzanych, noszonych przez żołnierzy by zabezpieczyć odzienie przed rdzą i olejem. Może coś takiego było tańszą alternatywą dla szerokiej definicji koletu? Odzienie o zupełnie innym przeznaczeniu?

Mam świetną skórę (obustronnie wyprawiona na nubuk), grubości około 2mm, lejąca się jak grubsza wełna, zapewne gdyby uszyć z tego właśnie ridejack albo taki właśnie bezrękawnik efekt byłby tożsamy z tym na kilku rycinach? (Ja tego nie postąpię, ale mogę przywieźć skórkę na okazanie)

[TomaszRejf]

pozwoliłem sobie skasować parę postów.

[raia]

Hi all,

finally I found a time to write some sentences.

As you said we are (I am) amateur historians/reenactors. We should speak each other to discover new thoughts. Im glad for every new opinion, because It makes me thinking about it. I have changed my opinion for many times. Every year brings us new information and knowledges. I like to talk about it and I like changing of thoughts. Without it we cannot gain new directions of knowledge.

In this topic we have discussed about colletes for pikemen. As you could read it before I think that it is wrong. And why? Im afraid of we will meet every pikemen with collete at our events.

Let me say some my thoughts:
I see problem in terms – „collet“ is (for me) thick oil tanned leather armour with fashionable shape (high weist, long tails).
We know that Gustav II Adolf wore, as his primal protection, collet because he couldnt use plate armours due to his injuries.
As you may know, collet has very very good characteristics – it is very hard to perfore and cut them – in contrast to common today’s smooth leather.

If you look properly at paintings, we cannot find any pikemen who wears as his protection collet without plate armours. Why? Bad protection is better than no protection, dont you think?
But we have many paintings of cavalrymen who wear just collet without plate armours.

We have some written sources about purchase of collets for cavalry, but I dont know any for foot soldiers.

So for these reasons I think that pikemen on paintings do not wear colletes.

But I think they could use thin leather jerkin for protecting his clothes. For that reason they didnt have to wear leather sleeves – because they were unuseful.

Of course – wealthy people used colletes – may be for protection, may be for fashion, may be for that they wanted to show their wealth.

That is my opinion.


What do you think about it?

[size=9:b9e81039f0][ [i:b9e81039f0][b:b9e81039f0]Added[/b:b9e81039f0]: 2010-11-06, 16:23[/i:b9e81039f0] ][/size:b9e81039f0]
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And now back to some ambiguous issues:

I.
Armand 2010-11-04, 00:35

[img:b9e81039f0]http://regiment.pl/forum/files/thumbs/t_cardplay_820.jpg[/img:b9e81039f0]
... and my opinion that on painting is officer.

::
I must apologize for my bad pronounce. As Bryan rightly remarked the man on painting doesnt have any symbols of officer. That is true.

The painting confused me, because I knew that picture is only part of painting - this painting :
[img:b9e81039f0]http://lh4.ggpht.com/_17H0NosXtdI/S0eDdkiqD6I/AAAAAAAAEHM/HFXJFzJazsE/s640/cardplay3.jpg[/img:b9e81039f0]

But I thought that was another painting - this painting:

[img:b9e81039f0]http://raia.snaga.cz/history/30tka/obrazy/kolet-plech.jpg[/img:b9e81039f0]

I had remembered only type of fashionable pikenier armour and collete, and the thing that on painting were officers (as you can see at second painting). Due to I thought that this pikenier is officer.
Better is said that man on picture is wealthy man - not common soldier.

By the way - do you know author of second painting? I dont :-(

[size=9:b9e81039f0][ [i:b9e81039f0][b:b9e81039f0]Added[/b:b9e81039f0]: 2010-11-06, 16:30[/i:b9e81039f0] ][/size:b9e81039f0]
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II.
TomaszRejf - 5.11. 9:37

[quote:b9e81039f0="TomaszRejf"]
na zdjęciu u Raia z Wiednia widać cienki kolet pod blachą::
[url=http://img5.rajce.idnes.cz/d0509/0/110/110584_239d9906b8fe61582085e42e839ac1b2/images/DSCN9088.JPG]Image[/url][/quote:b9e81039f0]

Figurines in Wiena museum arent made by original materials - I think only iron parts is original.

[raia]

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III.
TomaszRejf 5.11.

[quote:18ef09e2d4="TomaszRejf"]jedna z kompanii holenderskich w dużej ilości koletów jest jakiś oficer pikinierów w kolecie po lewej stronie.
[url=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/Officieren_en_andere_schutters_van_wijk_V_in_Amsterdam_onder_leiding_van_kaptein_Cornelis_de_Graeff_en_luitenant_Hendrick_Lauwrensz.png]Image[/url][/quote:18ef09e2d4]

This painting is very ambigious - yes, there is officer with pike. But no, he is not common officer.
On painting are the wealthiest people of Amsterdam as city guard!

More here:
[URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutterij]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutterij[/URL]

[Armand]

Raia- thank you for the picture you found, but what makes this soldier (playing cards on the drum) an officer? Silk embroidered jack? There's lack any officer distinctions- no belt across his waist or arm, (so called "sash"), no spontoon. In some armies already in XVI c. pikemen were NOT a poor villains, but men of high social status- noblemen, members of town guilds, etc. It was in German and Spanish tradition, that young noblemen started their military career as a common pikemen. That's because in my opinion expensive dress and a buff coat makes nobody a "pikemen officer". This make distinctions, a visual sings of his rank.

P.S.- Raia- what means "common officer"..? There are common soldiers, AND officers. Officer of a lower rank?

_________________________________________________

Panowie, wybaczcie ale jestem przez ostatnie dwa dni bardzo zajęty. Jutro po południu odpowiem na wszystkie postulaty, pytania i PRV. Oraz zrobię tu porządki. Pozdrawiam A.

[raia]

[quote:f5f772de69="Armand"]Raia- thank you for the picture you found, but what makes this soldier (playing cards on the drum) an officer? Silk embroidered jack? There's lack any officer distinctions- no belt across his waist or arm, (so called "sash"), no spontoon. In some armies already in XVI c. pikemen were NOT a poor villains, but men of high social status- noblemen, members of town guilds, etc. It was in German and Spanish tradition, that young noblemen started their military career as a common pikemen. That's because in my opinion expensive dress and a buff coat makes nobody a "pikemen officer". This make distinctions, a visual sings of his rank.[/quote:f5f772de69]

Cite: "Due to I [u:f5f772de69]thought[/u:f5f772de69] that this pikenier is officer.
Better is said that man on picture is wealthy man - not common soldier. "

So I (now) think that this man (playing cards) is wealthy pikeniere. But not common pikeniere.
I would like to (our common) pikeniers dont look like this man.

The man on the second painting (standing man) is wealthy pikenier too. He is accompanied by two officers. They can be members of city guard, or not. I dont know, because I cannot see whole painting and author / name. I think that this is favorite painting of "guardhouse".

[quote:f5f772de69="Armand"]
P.S.- Raia- what means "common officer"..? There are common soldiers, AND officers. Officer of a lower rank?
[/quote:f5f772de69]

"Common officer" works in and for army. He had a pay and so on.
But man(s) on "Meagre company" paintings are wealthy men of city. Their primary pay weren't from army treasury. They were merchants / noblemans. Their participation in city guard was prestigious thing. They didnt need a money.

I hope I explained it right.

[Bryan]

Sawa ma bardzo dobry pomysl odnosnie standardow wyposazenia, mysle zreszta, ze stanowiacy doskonale podsumowanie wnioskow wynikajacych z naszej dyskusji i popieram go w 100%.

[Armand]

[b:90946f47c1]Raia napisał[/b:90946f47c1];

[quote:90946f47c1]So for these reasons I think that pikemen on paintings do not wear colletes.
But I think they could use thin leather jerkin for protecting his clothes. For that reason they didnt have to wear leather sleeves – because they were unuseful. [/quote:90946f47c1]

Raia, thin leather jerkins of that period were one of most expensive and sophisticated clothes. They were often embroidered with silk or even silver, and usually lightly padded. If someone could order a doublet or jerkin made of gentle thin leather, he could also posses three servants, carriage, a horse and three [b:90946f47c1]buff coats[/b:90946f47c1], not only one ;) (Note- collet in english is a type of clamp- it's a tool, not a dress). Between shirt and armour was a padded jack, buff coat or a simple doublet. Sleeveless leather jerkins even don't look like buff coats, they are not that long.

I strongly recommend you Janet Arnold's “Patterns of Fashion”- a book dedicated to renaissance and baroque fashion of western Europe.

And don't be afraid, there is no danger of deluge of buff coated foot soldiers ;) because of cost this type of wear. According to me, it should be reserved for heaviest armoured soldiers with best equipment - 3, 4 people for every 8-10 in the first line maybe. And we accepted it as a standard for our group. I suppose, a mirror image of a baroque reality ;) Best regards, A.

______________________________________________

Bryan, też zgadzam się z wnioskiem Sawy i kolegom z Czech odpisałem w tymże duchu :) Sawa, przepisz proszę ten pomysł o liniach do działu taktyka, to usunę Twój post stąd- chcę uporządkować zawartość topików. Z góry dziękuję :)

[TomaszRejf]

obraz trochę symboliczny :)
[img:42768d47d0]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Session_of_the_Polish_Senate_in_Jasna_G%C3%B3ra_in_1661.PNG[/img:42768d47d0]

i takie fajne przedstawienie, zwróćcie uwagę na kolczugę :)
[img:42768d47d0]http://www.regiment.pl/galeria/wizerunki/pikinier/1604_pillagingofavillage_roeland_savery.jpg[/img:42768d47d0]

[Kadrinazi]

[quote:877964396f="TomaszRejf"]obraz trochę symboliczny :)
[url=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Session_of_the_Polish_Senate_in_Jasna_G%C3%B3ra_in_1661.PNG]Obrazek[/url]
[/quote:877964396f]

Ten obraz jest interesujący, chociaż najprawdopodobniej przedstawia drabantów-rajtarów Jana Kazimierza, którzy czasami występowali pieszo, z halabardami w ręku.

[Igła]

Z ryciną ta miałem kiedyś zgryz, bo przedstawia ona zaciężników, których zbroja jako żywo przypomina zbroje niemieckiej rajtarii z końca XVI i początku XVII wieku.

Trafiałem jednak na podobne ilustracje przedstawiające tego typu żołnierza walczącego pieszo z użyciem piki (1. instalacja z muzeum w Zurichu (bazuje tu na Ospreyu), 2. opis przy zbroi, takiej jak ta moja, w MET, wskazujący że jest to zbroja konnego, by zarazem przy kolejnej (co ciekawe cięższej) wskazać że jest to zbroja piechura) 3. rycina z 1584 pokazująca schwarz reiters, jako typową jednostkę konną). Mamy więc całkowity przekrój (dlatego nim "wypromuję się" na kirasjera, śmiało mogę latać per pedes, a jak się koń trafi to i z grzbietu :mrgreen: )
Drążąc temat okazuje się bowiem, że jednostki w tym typie, używane były tak jak kirasjerzy, ale także w walce pieszej po doposażeniu w krótką pikę, halabardę czy co tam... Obrazek więc pikinierów nie pokazuje, ale jednostkę, która mogłaby być użyta także jako pikinierzy tak - no chyba, że zawęzimy ich tylko do straży królewskiej?)